Hosted by John Jeffcock, CEO of Winmark and author of The Suite Spot
The Suite Spot interview with Gloria Yang
What makes social housing an attractive sector to work in? How can you map out a career path which plays to your strengths and interests?
In this episode of The Suite Spot, we talk with social housing leader Gloria Yang about her vital work in finance, tech and change management in a sector which is under more pressure than ever.
We hear about the choices that Gloria made, as well as some of the challenges along the way.
Gloria offers some revealing insights for those considering a leadership role in the social housing sector, including:
- How to own your career choices even when you are comfortable and valued
- The importance of signalling what you are passionate about to create opportunities for growth
- How to re-engage when you face an identity crisis or self-doubt.
LEADERSHIP LESSONS AND CAREER ADVICE FROM:
Gloria Yang, Deputy CEO at Origin Housing and Non-Executive Director at MORHomes PLC
TRANSCRIPT
John Jeffcock (JJ): Welcome to the Winmark Suite Spot interview series where we explore how to reach lead and deliver a C-Suite role today. I’m delighted to be joined by Gloria Yang, who is the deputy CEO of Origin Housing, and also is a non-executive director of MORHomes PLC. Welcome Gloria.
Gloria Yang (GY): Hi, John. Thank you so much for having me here.
JJ: Can I start by asking, what did you want to be when you were a child?
GY: Oh, as a child it changes all the time, but I do remember. I grew up in Northeast China, so I speak Mandarin. I grew up in this smallest city in Liaoning Province and with only about 400 other people. At school age there was always about 60 or 70 kids in the room, so I always, always wanted to be the teacher because you know, that is a figure for security, sharing the knowledge.
JJ: Did you go to university? You become an accountant so how did that work out, because you were a finance director before you were Deputy MD, weren’t you?
GY: Correct. When I grew up, the system is we pass a state exam. For three days in July, everyone participates in this exam and then your marks will take you to a certain university then you will allocated a subject, not necessarily by your choice. So I went into an Institute for Foreign Languages, which is really good, and the subject I was learning was for a BA for teaching English as a foreign language so you could almost say your childhood dream became true. But then I decided I do not want to be a teacher after four years. There was an educational fair for year three and year 4 university students. I slip in and then I decided that looks interesting to study abroad. And here I am in England! Once I came here, I decided to say to study computing science or accountancy. In the end I chose accountancy as on paper it is a better value for money course but your own choice obviously.
JJ: So Gloria, could you summarize your career for me in one minute?
GY: Yeah. So I started in the retail sector as a finance officer. Then I went into housing, starting as a Treasury & Capital Accountant and become a consultant in the sense because I specifically want certain exposure in a different organization. I was lucky enough to have the opportunity to work in different styles of organization and then came this role and now I am deputy chief executive because I took over the Data, IT and Change function alongside of the finance function and revenue. And then I took out a couple of non-executive roles and one of them is a member of the board and also chair of the Audit Risk Committee for Phoenix Community Housing, which has a very interesting Community gateway model. And then the other one is sitting on the credit committee for MORHomes PLC who raises finances from the public market and then onlines on to the registered provider sector.
JJ: What attracted you to the housing sector?
GY: I got into the social housing sector by accident. I didn’t know, you might feel that’s quite funny when you grew up in China, how did you not know the concept of social housing? It does generally work in a very different way. And once I started in the social housing sector back in 2006, the challenges were just one after another and I found it is an incredibly rewarding sector. That’s long before we talk about ESG, you know the impact we are making. It’s a generally very, very rewarding sector. You have to wear a commercial hat, but really delivering to the social impact day in and day out, especially in the context of today.
JJ: And when you describe your role, you mentioned you have tech, finance and other areas reporting to you and you’re a deputy CEO. Some people might label that more a CEO role. So why the deputy CEO title, how did that come about?
GY: That’s an interesting question. I guess it maybe depends on the size of the organization. So I think I was fortunate in the organization where you know you have an Executive Director of Development and Compliance and then operations may be similar to the COO role. Then you have the finance and you have sort of corporate services function in that sense. For us, I guess it probably just makes much more sense so the services of functions under this role are probably more like corporate services rather than if you are thinking about the customer resident services. So I think that’s probably specially unique for us. I am called the Deputy CEO rather than Chief Operating Officer, that’s probably more challenging though I would think twice again before launching into the whole services area.
“When I handed in my resignation, I was invited to have a coffee with the chief exec saying think very carefully, is this the right choice? Is this the right time? And I have to say it was a very, very difficult decision but I do see that as the first key milestone reached and it really was the time to move on, not to get too comfortable and consciously trying to expand.”
JJ: And have you ever had a guide or mentor in your career?
GY: Very early on I was very fortunate. So before I had a formal coach I actually had a mentor in an informal way asking where I thought it wise and who made me think who I want to be or really what interests me and that curiosity just developed from there. And then I was very fortunate enough to have been given a coach while I was working at assistant director level. I was part of the organizational directors group, so there was investment into the group, but also individually to have a coach. So now actually I’m in the position I could mentor other people or have a reverse mentoring. I’ve been on my third round of mentoring and that was really beneficial.
JJ: What were the coach versus mentor interventions? How are they different?
GY: I think for me, my personal take is when I was given the coach, it was very much about thinking about it in the operational context, how to effectively be working as part of a leadership team. And there is a lot of learning and seeking tools to work on and on your persuasion influencing, management or leadership style. I think now I’m at the other end of it, the thing about mentoring for me is to explore with the people I work with and ask the questions rather than giving advice. In my coaching relationship, I was coached in a way that’s really about performance and now I think my style is really about listening and just teasing out and sharing my experiences – getting the other party to think rather than really giving out advice about exactly how to deal with certain situations.
JJ: And you mentioned before that you changed organization and that was a very difficult decision. Can you remind me what were the sort of main drivers behind making that decision?
GY: I think one is the opportunity within the existing organisation. So I had only one more role to go. I would have been there for a couple of years same as the finance director also, so for me there are limited opportunities within the organization and also within the five years I actually covered every single role. I think I had taken out all the learning opportunity there.
The second thing is I was very specific about what sort of project I want to move into and expand my horizon. And I think the next few consultancy roles had a very, very different remit, really testing it out and I learned so much from that. So I think those are the two things back then I was quite clear in my head what I want to get out of each opportunity and as chances may happen, I was able to go with a sort of mini plan and that worked quite well.
“I’d just come back from maternity so how do I re-establish myself and also catch up with everyone who joined at the same time in this leadership group. So I had really those intimate small sessions of budget talk. At the time people would say, why isn’t she doing just a couple of people at the time? But it was really for me to get back into the swing of things and get to know these people and it worked really well. That mini crisis in the sense of a time of rent reduction, looking for efficiency, actually pulled me out of my identity crisis of who do I want to be at that moment in time and realize actually I really enjoy solving such issues and building relationships, working with people and feeling the impact of that.”
JJ: And on the subject of solving issues, we’ve obviously got this cost of living crisis at the moment, which will impact people who work for your organization, but also many your tenants. How are housing leaders responding to that?
GY: I think the sector is responding really well. I think different RP as providers, obviously have different approaches or different immediate relief schemes, but every RP will have what we call a financial inclusion team which are signposting to tenants for help available and they may also have their own cost of living fund or hardship fund. At Origin we do have financial inclusion services. community development services engagement, but also for this year, especially this year, we set up immediate relief payments and households can apply for immediate relief and in the way of a supermarket voucher because we believe this is the quickest way so people do not need to think about whether to spend money on energy or food, and actually, let us help to take some of the immediate issue away for the residents, and all the RP’s are doing something and they are all similar in nature.
JJ: It is the 6th December today. Are you feeling that the beginnings of the crisis already? Are rents starting to default or are the funds being drawn on, or has it not started yet?
GY: So we launched this specific fund back in October. So far the take up I think it might be building up through word of mouth in our community I guess. We haven’t seen a huge take up yet but clearly as you say, the real situation is building up. Prior to the pandemic our collection was consistently at the state level. Then the pandemic came. Even though we had the furlough and other help, even though we had £20 increase in Universal Credit, but for the first years between 2020 to 2021 arrears have increased to a level and we still haven’t seen a reduction yet. So we are all anticipating that there might be another increase on that.
JJ: Have you found any particular barriers in your career, any particular challenges and how do you overcome them?
GY: Yeah, language. English is not my first language. I am always trying to make a conscious effort mostly in slowing down when I speak to get myself understood. So I think that’s probably one of my biggest barriers. I’m still working on that, 20 years later. I don’t think I’ll get anywhere but you know people have been very accommodating.
JJ: My wife is Austrian and my German is still very bad so I really wouldn’t worry about it! Do you find language has held you back in your career or not?
GY: I don’t think so, but I do think I have to try slightly harder in certain situations to make sure I get understood in the time needed and that I consciously practice all the time because there will be situations you need to be succinct. There will be situations which are really important in commercial negotiations or releasing funds to give people the assurance, the understanding, the confidence. And luckily I think I did all of that but I do think that it’s something I am consciously trying to work on. Also I think when your presentation style can be different so that has to be rehearsed all the time as well and your writing style as well. I think those are really, really important things and they are all slightly different in the ways to practice.
JJ: How do you develop your skills and knowledge on an ongoing basis?
GY: I think the Affordable Housing Network clearly is fantastic, you know Winmark’s daily news emails – that is the first thing I read every morning genuinely. I think there was probably a shift through the pandemic as well. I do value this professional network a lot more but also the online element today – we don’t have to plan diary days in advance trying to find somewhere to meet. We can choose the time of convenience and just share our experiences.
I think in those networks we got to be a bit more conscious and that’s probably how my learning style and management style has really changed through the pandemic as well. And also your professional network in terms of subscription, you know the webinars, all those kinds of things are a lot easier, a lot more accessible than before for sure.
JJ: Of all the top team where you are, why do you think you got the deputy CEO role as opposed to anyone else?
GY: I expressed an interest, I guess, when the opportunity came along. I’ve always in every role I have worked on, I always let people know what I’m interested in. Alongside your contribution, if you also express your interest so people have the understanding and when the opportunity come, you are ready, but also they are consciously working on this opportunity for you as well.
JJ: And do you find that other people don’t do that, or do you think that other people didn’t do that as well?
GY: Maybe, I don’t know. Maybe there’s a culture thing about it, I’m slightly more direct about this. I’ve always expressed an interest in the sense of past projects so when I was working on every opportunity, I am always expressing interest to say, oh technology and change is something I’m really passionate about. I get in touch with the team, build relationships over there so that when the time comes and everything is ready for you to walk into that role.
JJ: With that in mind, the obvious move from Deputy CEO is to be a CEO. If you were to take up the CEO role, but what would be the top things you would like to address in a social housing entity?
GY: I do think because given the economic conditions and given that things are unlikely to be stabilized or easier for any organization for the foreseeable future, is thinking about partnership, what kind of effective partnership can look like. So I think you know the social housing sector that we built, we develop, we maintain homes. But if you look at a genuine partnership model, they exist in the form of joint venture. They exist in the form of finding an equity partner in the sense you to make it attractive. You set up a for-profit entity to attract different type of entity rather than just that financing vehicle. But I do like to think with our local authorities with us and the Housing Trust there’s huge opportunities for us as the sector to think about, so that’s probably something to think about which is slightly different and certainly that’s something I’m curious about.
Is there any other form of partnership that can exist because in the last couple of years John Lewis has started to build into the social housing, affordable housing or housing it depends what you call it but you know there are more and more large partnerships or organisations out there knowing there is a good housing supply issue. So, what can we all do together in that sense as we do have experience in management and developing.
JJ: You mentioned you were brought up in northern China, is that right?
GY: Yes, NE China yes.
JJ: And the UK, I guess in the press or language, is coming increasingly hostile I would say towards China. How do you feel about that? Does that impact you personally?
GY: I haven’t felt anything recently, but I did feel something when the Brexit vote took place. If you remember at that time in 2016. Immediately after the vote became known, the next day I experienced something quite unpleasant at a busy train station. And I think fortunately enough that was just a one-off incident. We didn’t see anything more widespread than that. I do think it’s an absolutely diverse and loving country. People have always expressed some judgment about it, so I have to say yes I know what you are saying, but I haven’t experienced anything.
JJ: My family’s all from Yorkshire but because I don’t talk with Yorkshire accent when I go north, I get a hard time, you know, being a soft Southerner.
GY: My partner’s family’s from somewhere in Yorkshire but don’t press me for the name of the village – you’ll get me into trouble!
JJ: And when you reflect on your career, is there anything you would have done differently?
GY: I don’t think so. But having said that, I only have 20 years under my belt. So ask me in five years maybe. So, not yet.
JJ: And if you were to meet your 25-year-old self what advice would you give them knowing what you know now?
GY: I’d say the first thing will be to be more assertive. I find that I don’t know whether that’s the barrier of the language, or that’s just the position I was in, or that’s the role I was in in the sense people seeing you with a finance background so you are here for specific reason rather than thinking holistically. And so I found myself not being assertive enough to express a view or opinion, and I worked a lot on relationships, but not in the early stage of my career, on the one to one basis. So I do hope you know I could find my own voice slightly earlier on.
JJ: And any final top tips for anyone embarking on a career in social housing.
GY: Ohh, just be curious. It’s an absolutely rewarding sector and you do see the impact you’re making and as part of the team or great organization. So stay curious.
JJ: Gloria thank you very much for your time today. That was fantastic to hear about your experiences and we hope to see you again very, very soon. Thank you, Gloria.
GY: Thank you so much, John.
